Trina: Hey there, my name is Trina, and today I'll be filling in as host for O'Ryan. I'm joined by Coach Noelle,

Coach Noelle: Hey there.

Trina: and also Coach Maren,

Coach Maren: Hi.

Trina: So today we're going to talk about a topic that we've actually received a few questions about from the ADHD community.

Susan: Hi, I'm Susan from Texas, and I was recently diagnosed with combined type ADHD in my 40s, so I'm wondering what I should know about ADHD and perimenopause. Anecdotally, a lot of my friends with ADHD seem to think that perimenopause has impacted their ADHD. However, my primary care doctor says that there's no connection, and I know that women's health is under researched, so I'm just wondering what I should know about this time.

Trina: I'm super excited to talk about this because I'm about to turn 40 next year and I have no idea what is coming. So this is perfectly time for me. So I'm really excited to talk about this. So thank you for being here, Coach Maren.

Coach Maren: Of course.

Trina: so let's maybe start with what it is and I think maybe just the basic definition of what this is.

Coach Maren: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and it's complicated, honestly. Perimenopause is this time before menopause. And so it can stretch out to 10 years before, you're done with your periods. And so it, in that whole time, you can have a ton of different symptoms. Honestly, anything, any kind of like health issues that you've ever had may become more, intense or stronger.

Anything that's like something in your family, a genetic thing that you're you've got your eye on, it might become present during this time. so it's just a lot of different things to look for. but so is this time before, you stop having your periods and then menopause is this time. after you haven't had your period for a year and then post menopause is the entire time after that. So there's like kind of these three stages.

Trina: Oh boy, that sounds like a ball of fun.

Coach Maren: is.

Trina: que, one of the questions that came in from Susan, basically their doctor said that me perimenopause shouldn't affect her ADHD. And to that you say

Coach Maren: Wow. I have evidence otherwise. So here I am. I'm at 48 years old. I've definitely gone through, my 40s. I would say starting around 40 is when I started to notice symptoms of perimenopause and they weren't that bad. All ADHD related, but a lot of them were, and actually it was during this time in my forties is when I actually got tested for ADHD. Because my symptoms, my, I was, I like to call 'em characteristics. My, characteristics of ADHD were very much, heightened, intensified during this time. And I just thought it's really important to me right now. I actually hadn't been on, ADHD medication. Until I was in my forties. because I just thought, well, this, I, everything was manageable up until this time. Now at, in my forties, I was like, oh my goodness, I need all the support I can possibly get right now. So I got tested. I got on ADHD medication. I even got on some anxiety medication because a lot of the anxiety part of ADHD, there's like this co occurrence that happens and I think that was a Also kind of heightened during this time.

And so, Those kind of things, those supports, those things, just like I think about them like buoys. They buoyed me to the top of the water so that like I was able to handle life in so many ways and without so much work to just get to the top of of the pool, so I could breathe and then I could handle things.

And so, it was really important for me to identify perimenopause and ADHD as, co occurring so that I could get the support I needed.

Coach Noelle: I know you probably have more of like evidence, scientific, research that you could provide to show that this is like a legit thing that happens.

Coach Maren: Mm hmm.

Coach Noelle: I would say I have at least anecdotal evidence that I have so many clients, women who were like, I didn't find out that I had ADHD until menopause because it got so bad.

I, I know the symptoms that my particular clients are experiencing and that have gotten worse, but maybe you could tell us a little bit about like, there's probably some overlap or, or things like that. What do you,

Coach Maren: Yeah,

Coach Noelle: that people might expect to see happen or worsen at this time?

Coach Maren: yeah, for sure. I think some of the ADHD characteristics and menopause, symptoms that kind of overlap with each other might be, one of them is trouble sleeping. It's sometimes that's a big one. Like it, With ADHD, our brain sometimes just doesn't turn off at night and it's really hard to kind of transition into this state of being able to fall asleep. And that can very much intensify during perimenopause. and a lot of this has to do with hormones on the menopause side. So just changing hormones. with ADHD, it's just, right, are partly hormones and partly just our, our brain wiring. Right. and so we may have to like work a little bit harder, just be really conscious about, bedtime kind of hygiene, sleep hygiene, like going to bed, other things like, brain fog and focus. that's something that we all probably have this challenge with it, with ADHD, and that can definitely get heightened, during perimenopause working memory. I think sensory issues can also be a little bit heightened to where definitely we, know, with perimenopause, you're often, either get hot flashes or, general, just a little warmer. And so every, honestly, every room I go into, I'm like, Oh my goodness. What, what do I, I have to rethink. what I'm wearing, how I'm even, I even think of exit strategies, like, how am I going to get out of this room if I get too hot or whatever, like I think about those things and that has definitely, been an issue with ADHD. That, that was an issue with ADHD and menopause. It's more of an issue, I would say.another thing might be emotional regulation. It's an issue that like definitely ADHD years. And I think that it can definitely be intensified emotional regulation. and especially, if you are, maybe, woman who has been traditionally like learned to, we've sometimes been inculturated to take care of people and, not take care of ourselves.

And that emotional regulation, like if we haven't. done the work to take care of ourselves up until this point, then, definitely like the, sometimes like these big aha moments perimenopause where, it becomes very clear that, Things probably like your priorities and how you take care of yourself really, has to change.

And then also just like fatigue too, just like being completely tired all the time is a big one too. And I think it might have to do with sleeping, not sleeping as well, but it also, I think is just, with ADHD. I have often had a hard time, within my energy level because of just the work, and focus, it takes so much energy.

And I think with, perimenopause, that's also, much more intensified as well.

Coach Noelle: Now I am, like,scared now hearing all

Coach Maren: Okay. I don't want to scare you. I'm so sorry.

Coach Noelle: now it's just that,I already, at 35, experience all these things as a very, very chronically ill person and, if those things are gonna get worse, I'm just wondering, Could someone who is like younger and, and not there yet, do to prepare for that?

if

Coach Maren: Yeah, I Absolutely, and I it's probably a lot like you know a financial planner telling you to start investing when you're young or something, and they give you the graph of if you put this much money in when you're 25, it's going to be, go up to a million dollars or something when you're 65. That's how I feel about, health. When you're young now, know, it's a lot easier for me to say this now, but just invest in yourself, in your health, in taking care of yourself. If there's something that you think might work, to increase your health in some way, it,try it out now, so that you have a good idea of what is going to work for you. I think another thing is as far as exercise, like when you're in perimenopause, you really have to, It's really important to start doing like maybe some strength training, like the bone density is important. With ADHD,movement and exercise is also really good for our brain. So it's like a win win if you can figure out what works for you. Activity wise, you can start that anytime. And it may change, obviously, as your interest changes, you get older or whatever, but it's really good to explore those things. when you're young, because then you don't, it's one less thing you have to kind of like worry about you get old. Iffy. If you aren't big into the gym and, you love surfing or something like do that more. You, what is, what, what's the thing that like really lights you up about moving your body? find out ways to do it, figure out ways to do it.

Trina: Mm, so interesting. I love all of that advice. I now, I'm thinking about going surfing. I'm curious though because you both have, coaching clients. Do you hear from them, that they go to the doctor, and, or they go to see the clinician, and they're, like, what kind of responses are they getting when they come to them with these problems, and are they being listened to?

I have this suspicion that it's not good.

Coach Maren: I think it's, I don't think probably most, like general practitioners, especially, but maybe any doctor has this, the, the niche, specialty of menopause and ADHD. I think that that's. probably very, very rare. And so you may get somebody who's, been trained in menopause. And actually, if you go to the Menopause Society website, you can even look, you can put in your, your zip code and you can find general practitioner doctors who have been trained to understand. menopause, which is great

Trina: great.

Coach Maren: And I do think that if you, finding somebody who understands menopause, they may be more, willing to understand or figure out your ADHD along with it. That's my guess. because I think they see, probably see a lot of people who are going through menopause who have probably a lot of ADHD like symptoms.

I'm, I'm sure of it. the other way around, I think an ADHD, a practitioner who knows a lot about ADHD may not know as much about menopause, that's, that's just my guess, but, yeah, and it's good to just keep looking for the right doctor who they may not, they may not totally understand, but even if they're, if they believe you, if they, even if they just believe you that these things are real, that's, better than a, Blowing it off and saying it's not real,

Trina: It's really interesting what you said that like a neuro, maybe a neurotypical person going through menopause is just now experiencing what ADHD symptoms are. They must be so freaked out. I actually feel bad for those people.

Coach Maren: you imagine? Yes,

Trina: If they're just like, whoa, why am I forgetting everything?

And why they're experiencing ADHD kind of symptoms all at once.

Coach Maren: right?

Trina: just getting heightened, which is still not great, but to go from baseline to symptoms must be a shock to the system, also.

Coach Maren: Right, totally,

Trina: Yeah.

Coach Noelle: you know what you're, What you said about, finding someone who actually believes you really like hits home. that's hard enough just as a woman

Coach Maren: Yes,

Coach Noelle: to have a doctor who believes like, Oh, I'm in pain or I'm experiencing this,

Coach Maren: you to test for this, like just to have a doctor who believes you and takes you seriously at baseline.

Coach Noelle: And then we're

Coach Maren: yep.

Coach Noelle: this other step. It's, it's the same as, just. ADHD minus menopause, we have a hard time getting doctors to believe us that, yeah, I think I maybe have ADHD or, there's all of the mastigating that goes into,to manage it and the worry that, oh, if I try to get medication, they're going to call me a, drug seeker and.

Coach Maren: right, right,

Coach Noelle: Uh,

I was wondering if there are more resources out there for late diagnosed women with ADHD who are in menopause. I'm finding that it's become impossible to mask and my relationships are much more strained and everything is just a little more erratic than it used to be.

Coach Maren: so many thoughts on that. I agree. I think the, she said something about that, masking is just exhausting. It's just exhausting, right? And, and I, it's hard to continue to do it. And I completely agree. I, the older I get to, the more I realize, I need to in more situations where I don't have to mask. As much or even as long, I can be in situations now where I just need more breaks or I just need to,that less, do it less often or, less long.

Trina: I would think that's really interesting, though, because I've started to notice that I need my ADHD people more often. So, throughout the year, I try to get together. with my ADHD people so that I can unmask completely for a while. And that has been really helpful for me to put time on my calendar to spend with those people who let me be unmasked.

So like it might not be your ADHD

friend, but whoever you feel that kind of comfort and freedom with, try to like actually put that on the calendar. I feel like that's really important.

Coach Maren: Yes, absolutely. Yep. And it's one reason why I decided to, go into coaching, I think was because there's,I am able to set up a schedule that works best for me. I can take breaks when I need to take breaks. I work from home sensory wise. I have a lot of control here. so there's lots of things that like, I, I think that part of, I may have even changed my entire career because I have what, I don't want to say it's just because of menopause, but for lots of things, probably ADHD and menopause, perimenopause, could have, it can change, it could cause you to change. big things, it could cause you to change just small things, I need to go to bed earlier now and that's without unapologetically, I'm going to bed early or I need a longer transition time to bed, like I need to give myself time to really wind down because it's just harder these days to like, kind of like unwind your brain from the day and so,

Trina: Ah, super interesting. I'm wondering if we could back up just a second and maybe explain masking a little bit? We've talked about masking before on the podcast, haven't we?

Coach Noelle: I think we've we haven't had an episode about it, but we've

Trina: We've briefly mentioned it.

Coach Maren: hmm.

Trina: I don't know if, we've never really dived in, but I do think it's really interesting. And like maybe why menopause might be increasing the

Coach Maren: Yeah.

Trina: and the need to mask. It's like the relationship there.

Coach Maren: So what, so masking.

Well, yeah, we could all probably talk about masking as ADHD years, but for me, masking is just like showing up I feel like it as my quote unquote best self, like putting on a good, I don't want to say show because it really is me. but who I think the people. me would feel most comfortable with. And so it depends on who the crowd is, right? It depends on who I'm with. And, Honestly, with some people, I'm really, can be a little more ADHD, maybe with them. And that actually adds to the energy and the fun. And with other people, I have to really, really hold back, and leave more space.

I don't know if you. We both feel the same way about that, but yeah,

Coach Noelle: I think that, that holding back is a key part of it.

Coach Maren: yes,

Coach Noelle: when we're talking about like ADHD and masking, it's, okay, what are the symptoms that maybe neurotypical, neurotypical people or people who just don't really get it going to be annoyed by? Or, what do I have to constantly mindful of and using so much more of my power in my brain to be

Coach Maren: yes,

Coach Noelle: and, know, what I'm saying and how I'm saying it and all those things is a

Coach Maren: yes, that's it. And I think what, what you said there, Noelle, is, the processing power, I think that's it. It's part of this focus and brain fog that sometimes happens that I feel like, Now I know, especially with my, with my medication, like I know even parts of the day that I'm going to be better at masking than others. and, the medication wears off, I think it's partly like less and less, I'm less and less able to have that, have that masking happen easily. And I just have a, probably, less, need for it, or like desire to do it, honestly.

Coach Noelle: Yeah. So like I have a couple of theories, but what do you think it is? menopause that might make some people feel like they need to mask maybe more than they did

Coach Maren: Yeah,

like what Trina just said about, going through menopause and maybe having some of these ADHD characteristics for the first time. and realizing, oh, this is not necessarily socially acceptable some situations. and if those characteristics are heightened or intensified, there's even more of a need to kind of like feel like we need to cover them up and just act more neurotypical. So remembering things or staying focused or not feeling tired, like just trying to not look tired those kind of things, or not being bothered by some sensory things. of those, parts of perimenopause. we may feel like, Ooh, I, I, I don't want to be the person who complains about this thing, or, I don't want to be the one who lets anybody down in, on my team.I don't want to be the one who stands out in any negative, again, quote unquote negative way. so yeah, there's just this like more, maybe more intense need to cover those things up and not show up. Like that.

Trina: That's so frustrating because as the symptoms like get bigger you have to work harder to mask

Coach Maren: right. Yeah,

Trina: And then probably you get to a point where you're like, This is too much work to try to mask all of this. I'm not,

Coach Maren: Right.

Trina: so exhausting. It's exhausting having more intense symptoms and it's exhausting trying to mask.

So I'm just gonna not mask as much and, and I bet that is, nice to a certain extent, but also the people around you would probably be so confused.

Coach Maren: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Trina: Like it might change some relationships in your life, to be honest with you.

Coach Maren: It has definitely changed some relationships in my life and I'm definitely like where I've been super accommodating. And I think again, women are often in culture to accommodate, and I think I've done that. My whole life in so many ways and I'm doing that less and less and that is shocking to people when that changes and it doesn't feel good to people who've really, from, from, that over the years. And so great thing is If they're able to accept that, then they're going to actually see a much more authentic Maren. And they might actually like me a lot more because I'm actually who I, I really am.

Trina: If you could, say one thing on this topic or prepare someone who's going through this What would you like to tell that person who might be listening?

Coach Maren: Oh, great question. I think I would probably just want to say that care of yourself, is not selfish. It's, responsible. It's the right thing to do to, get to know yourself on a lot of different levels as, as much as you can and accept where you're at. So understand your ADHD and, don't be afraid to advocate for yourself at the doctor or, like we talked about taking care of, like figuring out things you like to do for exercise. be willing to say no to things if it's, if it's not good for your health, your mental health, your emotional health, that kind of stuff. And so all of those things, it sometimes might feel a little selfish or unimportant, but it's actually maybe the most important thing that you can do for yourself right now.

And it's not something you can just like,decide to do, and then, oh, here I am. I'm like living my best life. that's where I think like definitely coaching is a great way to do that. I, this is, coaching is never like a magic pill, but it's a way to get support to kind of make small decisions. that are going to help you take care of yourself every single week. And those little decisions that you make every single week is going to add up to a much healthier life, honestly. And it could add years to your life. It could make the whole experience much more, enjoyable and, definitely just feel like you're getting supported through it as well.

Coach Noelle: not alone.

Coach Maren: You're not alone. Exactly.

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