O'Ryan: Hey there, my name's O'Ryan, and today I am joined by my two co hosts, Trina from MyLadyADHD,

Trina: Hello.

O'Ryan: and Coach Noelle.

And today, we are talking about gratitude and thankfulness.

Trina: Ooh, I'm super excited to talk about this one. This one is super important for ADHDers to talk about this.

O'Ryan: Is I feel like it's something that I don't ever like consciously think of.

Noelle: same. It's just, I'm gonna be honest. hate it. I hate, I hate the topic. I'm sorry, Trina, but I hate it. I have never, every time someone's what are you grateful for? especially around Thanksgiving, I'm just like, I just, I hate it. it feels so cheesy. it doesn't feel, I don't know, genuine, I guess.

O'Ryan: Authentic.

Trina: Oh, man. I feel differently about this one, so I'm excited to talk about

O'Ryan: Interesting.

So I think maybe it might be helpful, as always to maybe define the terms that we're talking about. So when we're, when we're thinking gratitude and thankfulness, what are we talking about here?

Noelle: well, there's, I actually did some research because, I was like, how the heck are we going to talk about this? And is a guy named Richard Emmons,

O'Ryan: Okay.

Noelle: he's the leading scientific expert on gratitude. He says that gratitude is made up of two kind of puzzle pieces. There's an affirmation of goodness. So saying yes, there is, good is a thing. It exists. there is good in the world. There are good things that have happened. So you're saying yes, goodness is a thing. And then also a recognition that there are sources of goodness that are outside of ourselves. Because gratitude is about, social connection. I guess him and like the other gratitude experts, see it as a really important, piece of our social connectedness. So we're recognizing that sources of goodness exist outside of just ourselves.

O'Ryan: So all good doesn't just come from me. I'm not the one doing it.

Noelle: I we can get into the nature of reality and is anything outside of our heads real,

Trina: oh.

O'Ryan: Noelle, I feel like you bring this up every episode. I feel like maybe we need to just dedicate an episode to reality.

Noelle: I would love that because that's one of my favorite topics in the world,

O'Ryan: Well, I am thankful that we are not talking about that today. okay, so according to these two experts, It starts with first recognizing that it exists and and that it comes from outside of you, so not being a total narcissist about it, but recognizing that it comes from outside.

I guess I don't understand. I think maybe I'm having a hard time understanding how this Just the recognition of this is useful.

Noelle: yeah. Well, I mean, I think that, Emmons said that it's useful because it requires us to see all the different ways that we have been supported and

O'Ryan: Hmm,

Noelle: the people in our lives. So that's why I think they call it a relationship strengthening

O'Ryan: I see.

Noelle: kind of emotion because it, it highlights our connection to other people in a good way.

Trina: Ooh, I like that. That

O'Ryan: Okay.

Trina: me.

O'Ryan: Yeah, okay. I'm starting to get it now. So this is, this is kind of a way for us to maybe be more intentional about recognizing for lack of a better word, for recognizing the value of other people in our lives. Or, or the even, not even just a person, but just outside things.

Okay, so I'm struggling with this. Why do you think ADHD people struggle with this?

Noelle: Well, I mean, I struggle with it too. I always have. And I said, because it just doesn't feel

O'Ryan: Mm hmm.

Noelle: It feels almost like toxic positivity to

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: but, and we'll, I'll talk about that more later, but just okay, why is it, why is it challenging for people with ADHD? one, potential reason is, I don't know if you've ever heard the term alexithymia.

O'Ryan: I have not. That's a fun word.

Noelle: Yeah, we learn something new every day. so alexithymia is a very fancy, fancy word that means difficulty experiencing, identifying, or expressing your emotions. So times you're just sitting there and you're like, there is a feeling that exists. And I don't know what it is or why it is, or, yeah, why am I feeling things?

O'Ryan: is it, is it the inability to understand it, the inability to explain it? Or is it all of those things? you know you're feeling something, but you don't know what it is. Hmm. Hmm.

Trina: a really hard time just actually feeling things. And, or, you might feel things plenty, but have a hard time identifying what they are. And, or might have a hard time actually expressing that. So this is something that people with ADHD run into?

yeah, I mean, it is a little more common in like other neurodivergence, like people who are in the spectrum, for instance, but, but yeah, it is something that people with ADHD can, can experience. So that's one reason it might be hard is if you're having a really hard time,actually feeling it or even identifying what it is or expressing it, then yeah, gratitude is going to be real tough, just like any other emotion would be tough. Maybe that's why I don't struggle here because I'm super emotional and feel everything. I go the extreme of where I can feel everything I can label it and I spend time working like trying to be more self aware and understanding what's, what are the feelings. So I think it also depends on how much, like it's one of my hyper fixations I guess, is to figure out Why my brain works the way it does.

O'Ryan: that's so interesting to you because I'm the same way as far as figuring out my brain and other people's brains, but it's a very intellectual thing. I'm, I'm examining it like, what are, you know, the pieces? I'm not really feeling anything about it. I wonder, listening to you describe that, I resonate with that, Noelle, in a way that I probably didn't resonate with the way Trina was explaining the way she's approaching it. And I'm wondering if maybe Part of it is because I'm coming at it from this very, utilitarian, and because it feels like toxic positivity, like you were mentioning, right, I can, I can very clearly also see how if I'm always ignoring the positive things in my life, especially when they're from other people, how that, that could be a negative thing for both relationship wise, but also for myself, right?

Noelle: I'm wondering if maybe that's something that you would experience talking to your coaching clients and how, how that shows up. more with, therapy clients when I, when I was doing that, but it does come up, with my ADHD folks. And, I try to explain it in the sense that I mean, this isn't just for people with ADHD. This is everybody. good or, you know, content or whatever like status quo, right?

That's how we're supposed to be on day to day. So it doesn't stand out. just yes, things are good. Okay. But when bad things happen, it does stand out very clearly because they're things we want to fix. we look at it like evolutionarily,, from that perspective, all emotions contribute to our survival as a species. So they all have functions. And, any of those negative emotions are driven by survival. you know, they engage the fight, flight, freeze kind of system. And so all those negative things are, to be more noticeable and memorable because they teach us how to survive. And that's why it can be really hard to. maintain an awareness and recognition of, oh, yeah, there were good things that happened today.

O'Ryan: so you're, you're, you're, the way you're describing this, it makes it sound like evolutionarily we are wired to really take notice of these negative things

Trina: we biologically probably look for more negative messaging.

so we have to make a really intentional effort to look at the good and what's going right and what we're thankful for it just has to be intentional because it's not something we naturally look at. So it's almost like you have to decide that this is important to you because maybe your relationships are important to you and these help being grateful and showing gratitude strengthens relationships, right? it's like you have to make that decision to like, look at it more closely.

Noelle: Mm-Hmm.

O'Ryan: I like that reframing , because it's similar to like ADHDers and dishes, right? I don't want to do my dishes. I'll gladly wait and procrastinate on my own dishes until it's an awkward pile of dishes on the counter or in the sink or whatever. But, I will gladly do the dishes of, Someone I care about and not even think about it.

And so when I think about this gratitude thing, personally, I feel myself being a little resistant and being like, man, I don't really know that it's important enough for me. But when you were just saying, Trina, do it for the relationships around you and the people around you. I'm like, yeah, it is important.

I can do that.

Yeah, it is super important, I think. And it's, our, we have so much going on already. And our, all these things we're working against as people with ADHD, that this just falls to the back of the line. Hmm.

Trina: with a lot of us, it's just that there's no time for gratitude right now.

I'm

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Trina: get through the day, right? I feel like, I, I like talking about this because I do feel like this is one small area that I've, got, I have a good grip on, and I've, really, but I've spent time and energy working on this, So I think, I don't know, I just, I like this interesting dynamic of you're fighting it, O'Ryan, you're like resisting, and I think, Noelle, you're open to it, but you're not like excited about it, but I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I've actually spent time doing this, and I've seen it impact my life, so I know how important it can be,But I don't, I know it can be hokey and like annoying to hear somebody say that.

Like you don't want to hear someone be like, Oh, just meditate, just journal, just blah, blah, blah. Like it's obnoxious. and I get that, but it is I think that like it's important for those connections and it is something that you have to intentionally do if you want to get better at it and it helps That's, I think that's maybe the next piece is so what do you get out of being grateful?

what's the point of going through that extra effort to like, look at what you're grateful for throughout the day? is the reward worth the squeeze or whatever? The juice worth the I don't know, is it?

Noelle: I mean, I think this was another thing that I really learned as I was doing some research into this is that gratitude practice is way more beneficial for way more things than I expected. So like the National of Health, for instance,They say that gratitude practice, according to all kinds of research, helps with all kinds of health related stuff.

We're talking,being able to cope with stress, so your resilience, of course social connection. but also things like heart disease, sleep, immunity. pain tolerance, like all of those things can be improved with a regular gratitude practice, according to research. So was an interesting thing I learned, but particularly when it comes to ADHD, this is a connection I made. there was fMRI study which showed an increased activation in the prefrontal cortex. So if we go back to our ADHD anatomy lesson, the prefrontal cortex is the part of your brain that is responsible for, for all of our executive functions. You know, the working memory, planning, and, and, and all those things that we struggle with, right?

With ADHD. that's, that's the culprit is our executive functions. And

O'Ryan: always the culprit.

Noelle: yeah. And so that area of our brain that deals with the executive functioning lower activity for us. It's not turned on enough. And,There, the study, the fMRI study showed that up to three months after writing a gratitude letter, even if the person didn't send the letter to the recipient, if they, after they just wrote it up to three months later, there was increased activation in the prefrontal cortex.

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: So that's super important for people with ADHD cause if a gratitude practice is going to the activity in your prefrontal cortex, that's going to help alleviate the, the severity of some of your ADHD symptoms, theoretically.

O'Ryan: It's interesting. So I'm thinking like, I'm thinking through like my own experience in this and I can see how like my pattern recognition would be in like overdrive focusing on all the negatives. Right. Because like you were saying, this is an easy, easy place for me to say, this is broken. I must fix it so that I can continue.

This is broken. I must fix it so I can continue. But that I don't have that same response in a situation where something positive happens to me. I feel the feelings. And to me in that moment, it feels Oh, I feel the gratitude. I feel the joy, I feel the thankfulness, but then I move on. It's not an intentional recognition and stopping and like processing in the same way that I do when obstacles and challenges pop up.

Right. And if what you're saying, Noelle, is, is true, right. This research is showing that just stopping and, and, and, focusing on this moment of gratitude and recognizing that it exists and allowing your brain to process that is Showing positive results months into the future I'm i'm finding myself thinking like if i'm constantly focused on all the broken things in my life what effect is that having on my now I am the future?

okay, I'm convinced, gratitude is important. How do we do this?

Noelle: Yeah. So I think, I mean, there's plenty of articles out there that talk about just various ways to practice gratitude. But I think it's especially important for us to talk about, especially how do I practice it when I don't feel it,

O'Ryan: Mmm, yeah.

Noelle: feel it, or maybe it doesn't feel real or genuine or authentic.

I think

with that?

Trina: I have a solution, you guys.

O'Ryan: Tell me, Trina. Ha ha!

Trina: you're not gonna like it. I think a good starting point would be, and I don't want to say journal because everyone's gonna be mad if I say journal, but there does need to be like a time of your day and just try this for a few days. what are three very specific things that happened yesterday or whatever that I'm grateful for?

Very specific, like an interaction with the lady at Walmart that was really nice to you, or the butterfly you saw on your walk, or just like really try, you have to think really hard to find these three things. Like I'm, it sounds easy, but like very specific, what were my three things today that like stood out to me? And just start with that and create a running list, like a note, a special notebook just for this that you can go back and look through, first of all, because that's super beneficial, right? If you're having a crappy day, you can go back and read all the things that you're grateful for. but also it, it trains you to look for those things. throughout the day right so if I'm like oh yeah I have a book where I'm writing down all the really good things that are happening I'm gonna notice when they actually happen in real life like oh that lady was really nice to me at Walmart like I'm gonna put that in my journal tonight I'm gonna write that in my book it actually helps you look for the good versus just

O'Ryan: Hmm, it

Trina: So I think it's just okay, really taking a step and looking in the past a little, which is really hard for people with but just look back this morning. Can you name one thing that happened this morning that you're really grateful for that happened? And I think the more specific, the better. So I got to take my daughter for a walk today. That was great. that's really nice. I made time for that. I think we have to spend time on this because we get so many negative messages and we're a lot of us are struggling so bad that we don't take the time to look at how fulfilling our lives are at some point or how much positive stuff is happening around us.

So I think it's just helpful to look for them in the past so that you can start seeing them in the future if that makes sense.

O'Ryan: Can you do,

Trina: how I started was

O'Ryan: can you do this?

Trina: can't do three then do one Three might be a lot but I've gotten to the point now where my list is 20 every night I make a really

O'Ryan: Wow. Hmm.

Trina: I'm super grateful that I have clean water and if I if I can't think of a specific spot which happens a lot because my memory, then I will just like how grateful I am that I have a full closet of clothes and that my refrigerator is full of healthy food and like taking it to a very basic level is also like a, that's a normal place, that's a normal place to start.

Noelle: I think also the, challenge with, practicing gratitude whenever it doesn't feel or you just don't, feel it in, in the moment. I think a lot of us, you know, we want, we always want to be honest and, and factual and, you know, and all of that. And it's really hard to do if someone says, Oh, what are you thankful for? And don't want to say anything because you don't feel it in that moment. But, Gratitude isn't just feeling. When I was doing my research, again, I found that actually gratitude can be into three different types. So there is the feeling gratitude of just experiencing the emotion. then there's also thought gratitude. So the cognitive aspect of okay, maybe I don't feel it right now, but I know I'm grateful for my air conditioning. I'm grateful for, you know, boyfriend making me breakfast this morning. So you can think it and not feel it and that's still okay.

That's still legitimate gratitude practice. The same thing with behavioral gratitude. That's the third type. So even if you don't feel it, even if you're not, know, consciously thinking about it, if you express gratitude through actions like saying thank you, sending a thank you card, performing acts of kindness, those are all legit and ways to practice gratitude. And that can be a lot more accessible, I think, for those of us, like me and O'Ryan, who maybe struggle to like, really feel it and feel like it's genuine. so that's one thing I definitely wanted to make sure we mentioned because that made me feel a lot better about, okay, When I go to my family's Thanksgiving, and they're like, Oh, let's go around the table and talk about what we're thankful for.

And I feel like I want to gag. it's okay because I don't have to feel it.

O'Ryan: Yeah,

can say something I think I should be grateful for. And that's still legit. That's still valid. I think it's interesting these three it makes me feel like I think part of the utilitarian in me is Oh feeling it does nothing that happens up here and then it's that's it But I mean we've seen that research shows that It actually makes a difference on the way that you experience the world and your brain is working.

But then also I think, With the thought, gratitude, and the behavioral especially for me, Taking a moment to , you said, even just writing a thank you note, right, to give to somebody. Even if it's an email, it doesn't matter. The fact that I am stopping, and being intentional about focusing on that moment and the way that it made me feel and trying to communicate that to somebody else forces me into the other categories of gratitude.

So I,

Noelle: Right.

O'Ryan: I really like that aspect of because I feel like sometimes when I'm, when I'm thinking about this, this feels hokey. This feels like it's not useful, but Knowing that it's positive, knowing that it will have positive effects, knowing that the opposite is that I am wired to ignore these things, and that I have to be intentional about it.

Of course it's going to feel awkward because I'm forcing myself to do something that I'm maybe not used to. But then also, the fact that this is going to strengthen relationships, that I'm not just doing it for me, that I'm doing it for everybody around me.

And even in the future, you know, when Noelle, you have kids, Trina, you have, you have kids, modeling that behavior.

Even, even if you're not, doing the, gratitude thing to that person, you're modeling that behavior for them. And yeah. Okay. I'm convinced.

Trina: This is an interesting episode because this is a hot topic in my house

O'Ryan: Really?

Trina: really, my husband struggles here a lot. Like he doesn't see, and sometimes it does appear like toxic positivity when I'm like,

O'Ryan: Mm hmm.

Trina: enough already. I that, you know, I think

Noelle: Okay, how do we practice gratitude and not get into that positivity

I think, A, it's important to recognize that grateful for something does not invalidate the bad stuff, you know? You're not saying, hate the word but, right? Because it, invalidates everything you said before it. It's not saying, oh yeah, all this bad stuff happened, but I'm so grateful for this silver lining. No, that's not, that's toxic positivity. It's trying to invalidate the bad and

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: good. so A, recognize that it's okay.

you can still feel the bad stuff and recognize that the bad stuff was bad. And at the same time, you can hold two things at once, right? You can hold the sorrow and pain and all that. And you can hold. the positive and the gratefulness about

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: and they don't each other. so whenever you're going to do this practice, especially like for anyone who like in this moment I am feeling just so angry or so depressed or so anxious or whatever, it's okay to just start by recognizing and validating that feeling saying, yeah, this feels awful and this is why, this is what I'm feeling and I hate it. And then after you've reflected on that, after you've the time to feel it and validate it, then you can say, and at the same time, These are the things that have been good, if they don't outweigh this other stuff, they were still good and I can still be thankful for them.

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