O'Ryan: You know, the holidays can be a lot for anyone. Especially those of us with ADHD.

Noelle: Don't know how I ever survived the holidays before I really started setting boundaries around my time and energy and like what I'm, I'm going to commit to and all that. It was just so stressful and hectic.

O'Ryan: I know for me I get really overwhelmed with really easy Mostly around Having to go to so many events, having to do so many things for everybody, and I feel like everybody expects my time. It's overwhelming.

Noelle: Yeah. I think this time of year I am talking almost exclusively to people about holiday stress and, you know, all the different things that they've committed to and the holidays are supposed to be fun, right? That's, isn't that, isn't

O'Ryan: Supposed to be.

Noelle: It's supposed to be like fun and love and connection and instead it's just stress and chaos.

O'Ryan: I, feel like that's, that's part of the disillusionment adulthood, right? Especially with ADHD. When you're a kid, all the holiday stuff is done for you, but then as you become adult, the responsibilities and the expectations start to pile on.

Noelle: sort of reflecting back and saying, didn't feel, that didn't feel right. Like I'm still expecting to feel the way I did when I was a kid where I

O'Ryan: yeah.

Noelle: a week or two off school and I could just play video games all day

O'Ryan: man, that would be lovely.

Noelle: relaxing. Yeah.

O'Ryan: Instead it's just like, Oh my God, I'm so glad that's over. I'm excited to go back to work.

Noelle: Yeah. Right. And I don't, I don't know. I feel like it shouldn't have to be that way that we're that it's over. That

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: right.

O'Ryan: Let's talk about boundaries. Why do we think this is such a problem for those of us with ADHD and especially around the holidays?

Noelle: Well, I think there's ton of different reasons that these things are hard for, for, anyone setting boundaries around the holidays, especially setting boundaries with family hard for everybody. But for people with ADHD, I think some of the issue is like there's impulsivity and emotional regulation stuff going on, right?

So maybe we to things before we really think about, do I have time to do those things? And then all of a sudden you're double booked or you're trying to make, you know, 500 cookies for six different events. And then there's, you know, depending on what holidays you celebrate, there's giving gifts to people and all kinds of traditions that you have to sure you're, you're planning for.

So there's that. And you know, too, stress makes all of our executive functions worse. It makes our symptoms worse. So that in itself is going to have a big impact.

O'Ryan: So it's, it's like, okay, so we've got all of these executive functions being called upon to step up and, and do what they're supposed to do, right? We've got like time, estimating time, just being aware of time. We've got decision making, planning, it feels like a lot of them.

Noelle: Oh yeah, like every function that we struggle with is put to the test in the holiday season. then you add to that sort of history that most of us have with just negative experiences, negative

O'Ryan: Hmm,

Noelle: the shame, guilt, and then there's rejection sensitivity. that all makes it really, really hard to stand up for yourself.

O'Ryan: Okay, so I want to stop you there for a second because you mentioned RSD, so Rejection, Sensitivity, Dysphoria, I definitely feel that one so much. I feel like every time it comes to like, I need to set a boundary here, or I need to say no, or I need to, somebody ask me for help, or, hey, can you, I'm busy, can you take on this task?

I don't want to say no, because I don't want them to hate me. And it feels terrible. Yeah,

Noelle: rejection before it's even happened. And,

O'Ryan: say no, And,

they might be like, yeah, okay, that's fine. I can, I can have JimBob do it.

Noelle: hmm. Yeah. And I think that is maybe the reason it's so important to, to do it because the more you do it and you get those good answers, you get that, Oh yeah, that's fine. Then you realize over the longterm, okay, maybe it's not as scary, but and

O'Ryan: like you're being mean.

Noelle: our, our society kind of it that way. I think at least American, like Western society of promotes this expectation that we are supposed to put others first.

We're not, we're not allowed to put ourselves first. That's selfish. Having boundaries is considered selfish. so that's a whole thing we have to kind of deprogram ourselves from. it's hard and it takes a long time.

O'Ryan: So hard. Okay. So, we're dealing with all these executive functions. We've got some RSD in the mix. What else is making it so hard for us?

Noelle: I mean, there's everything that is involved in planning.

O'Ryan: Yep. You

Noelle: hosting a, you know, a party or something like that, or you're going somewhere, the planning, okay, what do I need to bring? What is expected of me? Like, what all are we doing at this function? and then it's compounded if you have a partner or several, children, you know, Now you're, you're juggling several people's worth of plans and then you have to bring in the decision making.

Well, okay, some of these overlap. Which ones are we going to go to? For how long? it's a lot it's overwhelming. I bet a lot of people experience that sort of decision fatigue and the, paralysis, you know?

O'Ryan: know?

as you're, as you're talking, I'm just realizing that maybe I don't have such a good understanding of what a boundary actually means. So I'm wondering if maybe we could take a step back because I suspect that there are some people who might be confused around this term. I've definitely heard it used in a not so positive way, but then also I know that boundaries are important.

so it would probably be worth us taking a moment to think through what a boundary is and isn't.

Noelle: Yeah. I definitely see a lot of confusion about this. lot of people grow up having never had boundaries or being

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: as children. And so then we get to be an adult and it's like, how do I even navigate that?

O'Ryan: Especially as a kid, Right.

Like, like you were mentioning, like, just in our western society,

but also as a kid in a lot of cases you're just expected to do what your parent says. Your parent tells you to eat, you have to eat.

You gotta go to bed, you gotta go to bed. Like, it's hard to be a tiny person and have boundaries with parents. And then I feel like that definitely extends into adulthood.

Noelle: Yeah, then you, you know, if you haven't learned a boundary is and how to, how to set one as a kid, now you're going into adulthood and you're having your first, you know, serious relationships, career, having to set boundaries with your boss or the people you're in relationships with or your friends, activities, there's boundaries with yourself.

You're not just, you don't just set boundaries with other people. I think that's an important thing that kind of gets left out of the boundary conversation a lot is

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: boundaries with yourself are just as important.

O'Ryan: So what I'm hearing is there's, there's kind of two types of boundaries, right? There's this external boundary, which is how other people are allowed to interact with you,

and then there's this internal boundary, which is more about how you are able to interact with yourself.

Noelle: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's kind of, I like to look at boundaries as a force field. the force field is something that you and, and we have a right to protect ourselves, from, negativity and things that are going to harm us. Right. But. I think when it comes to the emotional stuff, or commitments and that kind of thing, we don't always feel as strongly that we have that right.

but it's, a boundary is more like, a force field, a line in the sand that says, okay, in X situation, This is what is acceptable for me. This is what, what I will and won't accept behaviorally from myself and from others.

O'Ryan: In this case, what would be an example of maybe a boundary and not a boundary, like a real world example of what a boundary looks like and what it doesn't look like?

Noelle: You know, a holiday related one would be a boundary, a boundary with yourself is okay, I'm going to set a budget for how much I'm going to

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: on holiday gifts.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: a boundary, an example of a boundary with others might be, I'm willing to spend two hours at this event. I think what a lot of people get confused about is, okay, is a boundary trying to control other people?

O'Ryan: Hmm. Yeah.

Noelle: Because that's sometimes, you know, especially when, when you get that pushback, when you try to set them, like, they're trying to make you feel like you're trying to control them and you're not. So, um, yeah. Yeah.

O'Ryan: Yeah, You're just saying like, This is the way that I find acceptable for other people to interact with me. I'm going to set my preference, but this is how I'm going to react when you cross that line. Yeah.

Noelle: you're not allowed to do that thing because that's a rule and

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: to control someone. It's, I am not going to allow myself to accept that treatment. So if you decide to that thing or do that thing to me, this is how I'm going to respond. I'm

O'Ryan: I see.

Noelle: you know, do this behavior to protect myself.

O'Ryan: I like that. That's a really clear way to say this, this is about my behavior towards a thing. Right? Whether it's internal or external, it's saying if this thing happens, this is how I'm going to react.

Noelle: hmm.

O'Ryan: And that might mean that if it's an external situation where somebody is, crossing my boundaries, then I might remove myself from that situation.

If it's a situation where maybe I eat too many cookies during Thanksgiving and then I What would be an example there? What would be the outcome, the boundary around like that? In an internal situation like that?

Noelle: you could say, Hey, I know that for myself, I really struggle with controlling myself around cookies. Not at

O'Ryan: Guilty.

Noelle: example. so. I can't participate in that part of our holiday tradition, here's what I can do. Instead of the cookies, I can wrap gifts for people or I can, know, cook dinner instead.

That kind of

O'Ryan: Okay, I see, I see. So it's, again, I think I was veering into rule territory again. Like, if I break this rule, then this is the punishment. Which is not really what it is, Right. I see. so this all sounds pretty obvious. amazing, but I'm also sensing that it's going to require the use of a lot of executive functions. It's going to also require me to get over some of my RSD and just be able to say no.

How do we do this effectively?

Noelle: I think one of the things that is kind of a foundational tip that I that you can apply to anything in ADHD is to try to separate the decision making from the doing.

O'Ryan: Hmm. So, you're not doing it in the moment. You're not making up boundaries in the moment.

Noelle: yeah,

an

O'Ryan: Boundaries in the moment.

Noelle: of that that I think

O'Ryan: I see.

Noelle: heard before is, Oh, you should a list before you go to the grocery store.

So you're making the decisions before you put yourself in that environment. So that way, when you're there, You're at least less likely to be tempted by everything. Cause it's like, Oh, I haven't made the decision about what I'm going to buy. So yeah, this looks good. And that looks good. And that looks good.

know, you've made the decision in advance, so it's easier to stick to something that you decided yesterday versus in the moment.

O'Ryan: That's a pretty solid example of an internal boundary too, right? Like where you make the list ahead of time and you're saying I will stick to this list.

Noelle: Yeah, so a lot of setting boundaries. I mean, of course there's going to be situations where you encounter something you've never encountered before and you

O'Ryan: Sure.

Noelle: in the moment, but

O'Ryan: Nothing's black and white.

Noelle: think we've all experienced a holiday before, so can, we can kind of guess generally what kind of situations we might encounter and the kind of struggles we might deal

O'Ryan: Yep, some family expectations, traditions, you get all of people expecting you to perform a certain way.

Noelle: Mm hmm,

O'Ryan: if you happen to be single, you're going to get all of the questions about dating and kids. If you have kids and family, you're going to get all of the questions about all of the expectations around that.

Uh, uh,

Noelle: kind of an easy thing to start with if you're of like, what boundaries do I even need to set, is pick like three to five adjectives that describe the kind of holiday you want to have. Right? So we talked earlier about how, okay, we're used to holidays being stressful and chaotic and overwhelming.

That's not how I want to describe my holiday, right? So pick a few adjectives that are like, okay, my holiday experience, I want it to be peaceful and harmonious, whatever you want it to be, and then identify, What are the things that I tend to encounter in holiday, you know, events and things that I could not describe with these adjectives that I have chosen?

And then that gives you a list of situations that, okay, we need to come up with some boundaries for this. So that's a good, a good place to start.

O'Ryan: So starting off by recognizing, okay, this is, this is, these are the, the feelings I want to walk away with.

Noelle: Mm

O'Ryan: And then being able to use that as a lens to look at all of the, the things that you expect are going to be asked of you.

Noelle: Mm

O'Ryan: Okay. That makes sense.

Noelle: I think, okay. Strategically kind of decided this is the, the kind of boundaries I need to set for myself. Then there's the actual communicating it part and can be hard to do in the moment. So again, we're kind of prepping ahead of time, planning ahead and saying, okay, I anticipate in the moment, it's going to be really hard for me to say no to going to this event or no to making, um, 500 cookies for, for each of these events, whatever it is.

So right now, even, you know, before you're asked, you can reach out to everybody that you anticipate hearing from and saying, Hey, this is what I'm able to commit to for this holiday season. And this is what I'm not able to commit to.

O'Ryan: like there's also a level of like, okay, maybe if, if like, your family's tradition is you make 600 cookies every Thanksgiving and Christmas or whatever,

Noelle: Mm

O'Ryan: that you know that that expectation is there, but maybe that's not something that's in the cards for you this year, and you've decided this is not what I want my holiday season to feel like, so you decide, okay, this year I'm not making cookies.

Noelle: Mm hmm.

O'Ryan: And so I wonder if maybe in that case, there's an aspect of communication here that is communicating that early, if you can. I don't know, not that it's a requirement, but to be able to say like, Hey, I know everybody's expecting this. So I can mitigate some of the disappointment and conflict by communicating early

Noelle: Mm

O'Ryan: or maybe even delegating.

I think delegating is an interesting thing too, with boundaries. This might be a situation where you know, like, Hey, you know, Cousin Jamie is interested in baking, and I know they would love to take over. So maybe why don't I send this over to them and say, Hey, here's Grandma's recipe. Here's the cookies I make every year.

Would you be able to help me out with this this year?

Noelle: Yeah, and I think that's another thing to keep in mind is that boundaries don't have to be so rigid

O'Ryan: Mm.

Noelle: they don't allow for flexibility and

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: You know, because is thing, And so don't have to set the boundary of, oh, I'm just not going to make cookies this year.

O'Ryan: Right.

Noelle: You can, negotiate and say,

if I do these 500 cookies, do all this other stuff.

O'Ryan: Mm. Yeah.

Noelle: Hey, I can make 200 of these cookies. Who wants to step up and do the rest? Or I can't make them at all, but this is what I'm, I am able to do. I'll go buy 500 cookies or

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: it is, you know?

O'Ryan: That's interesting.

Noelle: So there's a framework that I like to share with people who are brand new to boundaries

O'Ryan: Okay, give me the framework. Okay,

Noelle: worried that they might get some pushback, um, when setting their boundaries. so there's an acronym. It's called DEAR MAN.

O'Ryan: Dear Man.

Noelle: DEAR MAN.

So Dear Man is a strategy for effective communication. It helps you express your wants and your needs in a way that is respectful to yourself and is least likely to elicit negative, know, feedback. So D is Describe. You want to

O'Ryan: describe

Noelle: the facts of the situation without judgment, you know, I statements.

Typically on the holidays, I have baked 500 cookies for Christmas Eve. You're describing the situation.

O'Ryan: That is a lot of cookies.

Noelle: That is a lot of cookies. So, quick and simple, keep it short. Just about you, I statement. And then E is express. So you're, you're, this is like the emotional part, express your emotions. So I'm feeling really overwhelmed.

I'm feeling really stressed about the idea of doing those 500 cookies again this year. Then assert your needs. again, you're keeping all these sentences short and sweet. I need to something differently this year. I need to delegate it. I need to buy them instead. Whatever it is you're saying, I need something else.

then depending on the mode of communication, the R is reinforcing. So smiling, saying thank you. The, you know, pleasant, you're not shouting at people, right? You're, yeah. Yeah.

O'Ryan: It's, it's my form of expression.

Noelle: And then M is mindfulness. And again, this, this one is mostly for what, if you think you're going to have a lot of pushback, like sometimes when you start to set a boundary, people will bring up other situations. Oh, well, you know, the other day you said this, or, last time this happened, or, you know, something that's totally not related.

And so mindfulness, the M in Dear Man is sticking to the goal of this conversation and this

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: So maybe it's, okay, I hear that you want to talk about what happened last week or what I said the other day. Let's talk about that after we figure out this situation and just bring it back. A is appearing confident.

one's hard, you know, body language, right? So, eye contact and, not hunching in on yourself and, uh, you know, maybe I, and of course there's, when we're talking about neurodivergence.

O'Ryan: Yep.

Noelle: everybody can make good eye contact and everything. So appear confident in whatever way you feel confident.

Right.

O'Ryan: but we're focusing on this. I feel like that's a huge thing in appearing confident is to say like, this is the conversation we're having.

We can have those other conversations, but this is where we are right now. Like that, that kind of demonstrates control of the situation in a way that requires confidence. So it's kind of like a chicken And egg situation, but yeah.

Noelle: And that's why I think like these, the reinforce, uh, mindfulness, appearing confident, like those are the ones that are about more, they're going to come up more in the moment. If you're communicating. face to face. So emailing or texting or, you know,

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: then waiting to hear back, it's a lot easier to start with because you don't have to worry about those pieces.

and then the last one negotiate is, okay, you know, the limits of what you're willing to accept, but you can compromise. So that's the, you've started with, I usually bake 500 cookies. I'm feeling real overwhelmed about that this year. I need to do something different. And then the negotiating is, I need to delegate it.

I need to buy them instead. Whatever.

O'Ryan: I like that. So we've got describe, express, assert needs, reinforcing,

mindfulness,

confident, and negotiation. I love that because I like there's, there's a lot of this where there's this part of you having to Intentionally like you said like choose choose how you want that experience to be so so the event that you're thinking about or The thing that you are thinking about building a boundary around saying like what do I want this actual experience to be?

You know historically it's been negative and I've not enjoyed myself And so when I'm looking at this and I want it to be these adjectives, you know peaceful fun Energetic whatever To then be intentional about thinking about the way that, you are able to both describe your experience of that,

Noelle: Alright.

O'Ryan: and I feel like a lot of this comes down to communication ability, so being able to communicate with another person in a way that they are going to be able to hear you.

Noelle: Mm hmm.

O'Ryan: Because, let's face it, family comes with a lot of baggage, There's a lot of like, reading between the lines that happens, especially with parents sometimes, there can be a lot of like, weird guilt things going on, and so you have to be able to describe the way that you're feeling, and communicate those emotions in a way that isn't going to be triggering to them, so that you can actually communicate.

Which is so hard sometimes, where you feel like you have to manage other people's emotions just to set your own boundaries.

Noelle: Yeah. And that's, that's a thing to be mindful of as well, is that other people's emotions are actually not your responsibility.

O'Ryan: Yep.

Noelle: They're really not. Because you can't, you can't control other people's emotions.

O'Ryan: Mm hmm.

Noelle: much you try, there's, could set up the situation perfectly and someone could still be offended or upset

O'Ryan: Yeah,

Noelle: So they're, they're not your responsibility.

O'Ryan: the negotiation one is also interesting to me because This requires the realization that other people also have boundaries

Noelle: Mm

O'Ryan: So let's say that like the cookies are a requirement for this celebration Like maybe it's like a core part of this holiday tradition and you are the one who have always done it Maybe fairly or unfairly.

It's just that responsibilities on you And this year you've said, you know what, I can't do it this year. And so now everybody's like, well, I can't do it either. And so I feel like that negotiation is interesting because now you are, you're forced to set your own boundaries, but then also contend with other people's boundaries.

And then that, I think I like the idea, uh, the, the call out that you made earlier about like, things aren't black and white, it's never going to be perfect. And you have to be okay with the idea that you might set a boundary. And then somebody else might have a boundary that now conflicts with yours. And now you have to figure out, okay, what does this look like moving forward?

Maybe it means that I don't make the cookies, but I help, you know, cousin Jamie

and their family make the cookies this year.

maybe I'm there as moral support rather than actually doing the baking. Maybe we split the load or maybe they take on something else that wasn't getting in the way of cookies. I am so hungry right now for cookies.

Noelle: I'm always hungry for cookies, but yeah, and you know, you don't even have to know in advance necessarily what the negotiation

O'Ryan: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Noelle: clear as cookies, right? so when you get to that negotiation piece, you can say, You know, you've already said, okay, I'm not going to do this.

I need to do something different. What can we figure out? Let's, let's cooperatively come up with a solution makes sure that I'm not stressed and overwhelmed and

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: this and we're, we're both happy. Yeah.

O'Ryan: the, like, you've decided, I cannot do this. Like, this is the boundary that I've set. I cannot do this. That boundary is now. I would say it's, it's not set in stone, but like, it's something that you need to kind of try to reinforce.

Right. But when you come to that conversation, if somebody, the goal of this conversation is not to convince you to let go of your boundary, it can't be that the conversation has to be about, I've set this boundary. How do we move forward from here?

Noelle: Mm

O'Ryan: hard place to stand on in some cases, like cookies, like you said, are easy, but.

holidays, families, all kinds of things, even, even internal things, right? Like maybe, maybe this is a,

Noelle: hmm.

O'Ryan: really great example of an internal one. I live far away from family. And so I have spent the last couple of holidays either with friends, like before or after holidays. So like not on the actual day.

So what that means is oftentimes on the day I I've spent like Thanksgiving alone a couple of times, which feels kind of sad. And then if you're scrolling Instagram and you're seeing everybody posting all these beautiful photos and all these other things, like that sucks. And so maybe in a case like that, and even if you are with family, sometimes you might be scrolling through and you see all these people posting like these beautiful, perfect examples of their beautiful, happy family, having this like amazing Turkey spread And like, you know, it's perfect and picturesque.

But you know that there was drama behind the scenes. You don't get to see any of that. But when you're scrolling, that can make you feel really guilty. It can make you look around and say, man, all of the ways that I've failed or dropped the ball today, and I'm looking at this, and these people have this perfect life.

It can make you feel really crappy. So that would be, that might be a good place to set a boundary of saying like, if I know that I am going to be hard on myself, comparing myself, maybe I don't scroll social media on the holidays. Maybe I go focus on something else. Maybe I intentionally call a relative that also couldn't make it.

Maybe I do something other than the thing that I know is going to cause me to not have those adjectives that I decided earlier that I want to have.

Noelle: And I think that that second part of, I do X instead and

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: out in advance is one of the more important things for people with ADHD

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: yeah, when you get in that moment and you're used to doing a certain thing, We might not have the executive functioning in that moment

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: with an alternative.

So figuring out in advance, what am I going to do instead that might, you know, meet that need for stimulation or, getting rid of my boredom or whatever that is.

O'Ryan: if there was one takeaway knowing that a lot of folks are going to be going into the holiday season In the US, there's going to be some Thanksgiving stuff. there, there's also going to be tons of other holidays coming up in the next few months. If there was one thing that you could tell somebody that you feel like would have the most impact in this situation around boundaries, what would it

be?

Noelle: have to be one? Can it be

O'Ryan: it could be it could be two. It could be three?

Noelle: so. Number one is as a full sentence That's I I I always have Like that's been ingrained in my mind ever since I heard it for the first time. No as a full sentence Especially if you're dealing with someone who Constantly pushes back against your boundaries and always wants to turn it into an argument

O'Ryan: Yeah, there's like no reasoning there, Right.

It's just, we're having an argument.

Noelle: Right. I think in those situations, it's actually best not to offer an explanation

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: reason why, because no reason's ever going to be good enough for that person. Right?

O'Ryan: it just, it creates another opportunity to have an argument and to derail the conversation, Right. Like you said, being mindful, that's part of that.

Noelle: Yeah, and it kind of, you know, you know, giving in to having that conversation and giving your excuses and reasons and everything tells them they're not really

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: can convince them if I talk, you know, wear them down enough.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: no

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: sentence.

have a right to boundaries. You have a right to protect yourself.

You have a right to joy and happiness and peace. and you don't need a reason. you can say no just because you're tired. Or you don't want to. That's a good enough reason.

O'Ryan: That's a good enough reason. I love that. Yes.

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