O'Ryan: Hey there, my name is O'Ryan, and today I am joined by my co host, Trina from MyLadyADHD.

Trina: Hello!

O'Ryan: And Coach Noelle.

Today, we have a question from the community.

Community Question: Hi, this is Melissa from Seattle and I wanted to ask , often I feel like no matter how hard I try, I'm never doing enough. And it feels like I'm always letting my friends and family down. And because of this, I'm unable to relax because I'm afraid of being looked at as lazy. Why does this happen and how do I get over this?

O'Ryan: I definitely resonate with this. I don't know if Trina, you , or Noelle, if you deal with this.

Trina: Oh yeah, that's such a gut punch hearing that resonate 100%. I feel like it's really, really common in the ADHD community. This is one of the biggest things I hear in my community. Yeah, this one, this one cuts deep.

Noelle: almost every client that I see has experienced some shame at some point. Like, this is a thing we talk about about every client, and I have definitely experienced this myself, a lot around, like, career related stuff, not feeling good enough.

Trina: the feeling of not doing enough, like no matter how hard you try, you're not doing enough is something that I think is very common in this community. And I've, I've always kind of been curious about that also, like why is that so prevalent? So I'm excited. We're going to talk about this.

O'Ryan: Noelle you mentioned shame. Is that what this is? Is this shame?

Noelle: Yeah, I mean, shame can show up in some really subtle ways that you might not even know that that's what's going on for you. But yeah, I think at least, you know, with our listener's question here, it sounds like shame is probably a big part of

O'Ryan: maybe it might be a good idea then to define shame because I think it might not be super intuitive. this is not what I would have thought of when I'm experiencing these feelings, so I'm curious. If, if we're talking about shame here, how would we define this?

Noelle: I think that's really important because a lot of people will use the terms shame and guilt interchangeably, and they're not, they're not the same thing. the way that I have internalized and remember it, that guilt is, I've done something wrong, it's external, it's focused on fixing, I've done something wrong, I have to make it up to the person. That's guilt. know, you're, you're in a court. Guilty. that kind of thing. Whereas shame is very internal. you want to hide. You don't want other people to see it. You don't want other people to know. So it's the sort internally focused versus externally focused, and the action involved is am I going to hide it, like with shame, or am I going to try and find ways to fix it?

Trina: So It kind of feels like just because I feel like I'm not doing enough doesn't mean that that's actually. What's happening, and so much of it is internal, so much of it is shame. And, ugh!

Noelle: mean, it can be, like, it can either be that we're not interpreting the reality of the situation correctly, and we are actually accomplishing a lot, and we're just not able to see our accomplishments, or it could actually be, like, as a person with chronic illness and disability. it Could be that you're not living up to your responsibilities and expectations, and you feel shame about that.

Trina: Every time I think about the word shame, I'm reminded about a quote. I think it was Dr. Ned Hollowell, where he says the single most debilitating part of having ADHD is the shame, I didn't resonate with shame that much, until the longer I've had ADHD, the longer I've sat with my diagnosis, the more I noticed how shame is intertwined in, like, everything. And then seeing this quote, like, really hit me, and every time I see it, I'm reminded like, yeah, it is a huge part of having ADHD is like just the shame with it.

Noelle: I recognize that quote. I remember the first time I read it. it was one of those huge, like, mind blown revelations, I guess? Because shame, I could totally get way down the rabbit hole into the science behind this, but since is a dopamine deficit disorder, we need to make more of it, right? shame is going to take away from it.

O'Ryan: if shame, as doc Holloway says is the debilitating part of ADHD, obviously everybody feels shame at some point. This isn't something unique to ADHD, but what is, what is unique about that experience for folks with ADHD?

Noelle: I mean, part of what makes it different for people with ADHD is just how prevelent it is. There's the fact that we have these symptoms like the disorganization and impulsivity and deadlines and being productive and all of those things that, okay, it's causing these actual real world challenges that we're constantly either comparing ourselves or being compared to other people. That's like the perfect recipe for shame right there.

And there's actually a study that really hit me when I read it. Children with ADHD receive, at least according to this study, as much as 20,000 more negative remarks than their peers by the age of 10.

O'Ryan: Wow, yeah, I that kind of makes sense thinking back on my childhood and constantly being like You know, you're you're taking too long. You're doing too much. You got distracted. You need to focus

Trina: Yeah, I mean, Uh

go sit in the hallway sometimes because I was such a distraction. , even that alone, that has to impact you in some way. And then I think about, too, like, okay, that's, that study's only until you're ten. How many more negative comments are we hearing in general, in life, past ten years old?

I'm sure it doesn't just stop when you hit ten years old. so that's something that we carry around with us. It's really heavy, I think.

Noelle: I mean, by the age of ten you haven't even started having relationships or job related stuff yet. oh my gosh, the potential for shame just in those two things alone is,

O'Ryan: It reminds me of our first episode and we were talking about zebras and being a zebra judged by a group of horses makes you ashamed of your stripes and that, that kind of hits me hard just thinking about, yeah,

Trina: too fast, too this, too that, and we can go back and talk about masking and all the things that we have to do to overcompensate for that, but yeah, I mean, you can see how shame could play into that if you're always too much or always not enough.

Like, there's, where's the balance?

it's really hard.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: and like I said, there's the adult relationships, there's career, but then we're also surrounded by the media, which, I don't know how many shows and movies that kind of portray people with ADHD as either super awkward and spastic, and almost sort of conflating ADHD and autism in a way, or, you know, if you're not hyperactive and spastic, you're totally, spacey and irresponsible and all those things.

and that's what everyone else is seeing. So if we come out and say, Hey, we have ADHD, that's what they're thinking about. They don't know what it actually is. then we get in the medical field where. worry all the time about, okay, are people gonna be like, oh, you're actually taking drugs, or doctors are going to look at you with suspicion if you just ask, hey, can I have some medication for this? Yeah.

O'Ryan: just trying to get stimulants. It's like those stimulants don't work on me the same way they do you. I could actually go take a nap.

obviously you folks with ADHD, Because of a lot of the challenges that come with ADHD, it creates a lot of scenarios where shame can really take a foothold. I'm curious, what does this look like for us long term? If this isn't something that, we're not dealing with, but we're hiding and doing all those things that shame makes us do anyways, which then creates the big feedback loop of more shame.

Noelle: Well, I think, now, I'm gonna have give, a spoiler warning here. If you have not seen Inside Out 2, and that's a thing that's really important to you, this isn't like a major spoiler, but I really like those movies and the way they clearly had Mental health professionals helping them come up their analogies because it's very good So in the second movie Spoiler We see that Riley is developing her sense of self who she is as a person and in the movie is represented as this kind of cool looking blue tree nice and soft and glowing and that tree is made up of memories of her experiences the emotions will take down to her subconscious and as these particular memories are kind of embedded they create these strings the the roots of that tree.

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: And so, she starts off with a, sense of self, a core belief. but a belief about herself that I'm a good person. I think over time, the experiences we have, the memories we have of those experiences, the way people treat us, et cetera, are all getting embedded in your self conscious and you're not purposely taking those, those experiences and trying to judgments about yourself. But if most of your experiences are Those negative, you know, those 20,000 or more negative comments, well, your sense of self is going to be kind of negative probably.

Trina: That's a great analogy. I was like actually seeing the tree in the back of my mind. It just like taints everything, doesn't

Noelle: I guess the way that this looks, real life wise, we might kind of diminish our accomplishments. That was one that I really struggled with for a long time. And when someone says, Oh, you, you graduated with a, with a master's degree. That's awesome. It's like, oh, you know, it's not a big deal. I was just

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: You know, those kind of things. perfectionism. Perfectionism to you is a whole other topic I could get into,

O'Ryan: I feel like this is the one that I struggle with so much in everything I do. Especially because, so much of, even in work. And like, you guys know this, because we work together. a lot of the stuff that I'm doing is visual, and it's very clear metaphor for, perfectionism and getting stuck in the details and making it look perfect.

But sometimes it just needs to get done.

Noelle: yeah, perfectionism is so insidious

O'Ryan: And I, I can't.

Noelle: yeah but I

we develop that perfectionism as a coping skill

to try and mask our shame. then there's the fear. Is that real for you?

O'Ryan: It's so true, though. Yeah.

Noelle: Um, but yeah, then you know it could look like a fear of trying new things, compulsive dishonesty. You know, if you're masking you're going to be constantly lying about, you know, your actual. struggles. Oh yeah, I'm fine. being afraid of being too much. That's a big one. Especially if you're more like at the hyperactive type and you tend to be more bubbly and outgoing and loud and, and like those kind of, symptoms just, I think often tend to lead to people giving you those, side eyes are like, Oh, they're talking again.

You know,

Trina: I think that one in particular is really tough for women and girls because I feel like a little boy with ADHD is kind of expected to run around

and be wild. But Girls are just, that is not okay for us to be tapping on the desk and being loud and it's definitely looked at much more negatively, I think, with girls and and women.

So it's just an observation and something that I hear from other women with

last thing

Noelle: that I'll mention is that this isn't just mental health related. long term, studies that say, yeah, untreated ADHD can affect your work and quality of life and relationships and can cause mood disorders and substance abuse issues. And, of course, those things all Very clearly you relate to, to shame, but there's also health effects. the more chronic stress you have from shame and, and trying to mask it and hide it and constantly live up to these expectations that other people have for you, that raises your stress hormones. And over time, that literally can damage your brain, your, especially like your memory, it impacts all of our executive functions. So it's like the shame makes ADHD worse over time.

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: we experience all these chronic health effects that, stress, you know, chronic pain, fatigue, et cetera. It's physical symptoms can all arise from this, this internalized shame.

Trina: I really resonate like the term shame spiral and anxiety spiral. I, I feel like my ADHD and shame and anxiety are always like spiraling around one another,

O'Ryan: Oof yeah!.

Trina: so I can definitely see how shame could, you could spiral when dealing with shame. what is that?

How do you get out

O'Ryan: How do we get out of that spiral?

to start sort of generally, of course, Learning more about yourself and your ADHD, and the challenges that we face, just the, I think sometimes the knowledge of, oh, this is ADHD, it's not me and

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: as a person, it's,

O'Ryan: It's just being able to label it.

Noelle: uh huh. So there's, there's that, and learning how, then, once you know, okay, this is ADHD, it's not me, then practicing separating the challenges you face, the symptoms you have from your self worth as a person, I can be a good person and still procrastinate.

I can be a good person, a worthy person, a good employee. And still miss deadlines sometimes. you know, the, the word and, I could go on about this forever, the word and is like the most important word in the English language to me, because people in general tend to think in black and white sort of terms, especially people with ADHD. And it's really hard to hold within our minds two conflicting ideas that can both be true at the same time. And so recognizing, yeah, I can be a good person and I can struggle with these things.

O'Ryan: Acknowledging the shame that you're feeling in the moment, but then also acknowledging that you are more than that.

Noelle: exactly.

Trina: I actually had my, uh, my ADHD coach this week remind me that like, whatever I'm feeling isn't going to last forever, which kind of was really nice to remember that. But I honestly don't remember that in the moment. I need something external to remind me Oh, this is just a temporary feeling , this is not forever. I think that's really important to remember, too, is like, if you're feeling shame, or if you're feeling, overall icky about anything with ADHD, isn't going to last forever, it's how you feel right now, but that's not how you might feel tomorrow.

O'Ryan: I know one place that I often feel shame is, when I am feeling that shame, one of the things that I tend to do is clam up. Like you said earlier, Noelle you tend to kind of go silent to hide that shame. I see it a lot in relationships, whether it's work or even personal, but In moments that I start to feel that shame, one of the ways that I start to label that and know that my next step is that I need to communicate with that person. Because I have the tendency to clam up, this is probably a moment that I should be talking to them. If it's a work related thing, maybe it's saying like, Hey, I'm gonna miss this deadline, or I'm running behind, or I need help on this because I'm just stuck.

If it's a personal thing, maybe it's like, Hey, I feel like I let you down, or I feel, I'm feeling this way. Can we talk about it?

Noelle: Did you know that's a DBT emotional regulation skill?

O'Ryan: Is it? I, I didn't.

Noelle: it's called opposite action.

O'Ryan: Oh. Tell me more.

Noelle: the idea, and this is, you know, a really great skill for anyone with ADHD because our emotions can be really intense and last longer. so opposite action is where you identify, okay, what is the urge that this feeling brings up in me? And it I'm feeling shame and the urge is to hide, to mask, to lie, whatever it is, then you make yourself do the opposite thing. And that's not as easy as, you know, to do as it is to say. it starts really tiny, but you can, can build up to

O'Ryan: easy for me sometimes to, in that moment when I realize, okay, I need to communicate, to then go into a shame spiral about the fact that I didn't communicate earlier. And so then it's just doubles down. I'm like, okay, yes, I'll communicate now. I can't wait any longer.

Trina: you can't win. Like,

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Trina: you're, what do they say? You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. That is, that's pretty much ADHD. It's what it feels like a lot of times.

O'Ryan: I feel like that opposite action that that is the way to break that shame cycle, at least in that situation where I'm hiding.

If we were thinking about our listeners, somebody who's listening and especially the person who asked this amazing question What's something that they could do today to start Recognizing but then doing something about this shame

Trina: a fact that you're doing more than you think you are. and so this is, um, You probably are doing way more than actually the average person is. It just never feels like it. So I've, I've had my coach, of work with me to create like a to done list. And I know that you probably have heard of this, but instead of like a really long to do list, like we all do every morning, is to just write what you have done at the end of the day or whatever, and you'll be shocked by all the things that you actually did do. so I feel like that's just like a very tangible thing to like, Oh, wait, I, I actually am doing a lot. And it can help minimize the shame spiral, I think. and then another one would be to just celebrate small wins and just try to build your confidence that way. I really like the idea of noticing where the problem is and then like trying to do the opposite. it seems kind of like a game to me at that point.

O'Ryan: hmm

Trina: can gamify things for sure. yeah. And just practicing uncertainty and discomfort. Oh,

Noelle: that's a whole thing.

Trina: that was a reaction to that one. Yeah, I mean, I actually had to do this recently and own up to an area that I was struggling in. And I think if you do that with someone that you trust or some, some scenario, start small, someone that you know and love or care about and admitting somewhere that you're struggling and noticing that, oh, it's a, it's a safe environment for me to do that, I think is really helpful also. I'm sure Noelle, you have some other thoughts here.

Noelle: Yeah, I mean, self compassion is hard. I think the one that I always hear all the time is, Oh, talk to yourself like you would talk to a friend. And that's nice, but it's not necessarily easy, and it doesn't necessarily feel accurate you're saying, Oh yeah, good job, self. You did two minutes of dishes and then you sat down again. whereas with a friend you'd be Dude, you're awesome. You were struggling so hard and you did a thing. Right? It just doesn't feel But if it doesn't feel true, you can start with neutral statements about yourself. don't have to go from negative to positive. That's a huge leap. you know, start, start with the neutrals. it always goes back to starting small the, the core beliefs that I talked about earlier, a sort of, metaphor, that about core beliefs is that These beliefs are, are, subconscious. They're not things that we think about ourselves on purpose or regularly. They're sort of deep down. But if you start by just sort of noticing, Okay, in this situation, I tend to have these thoughts, and then I tend to act this way. You can start to kind of notice patterns and themes, and if you dig into that and say, Oh, well, make sense if I'm thinking this way and behaving this way, that I must think I'm not good enough, or, you know, some kind of shame related core belief. So that core belief acts like a pair of sunglasses, you know, the sort of rose colored glasses analogy that most people are familiar with was the same deal. You're going to interpret the situation. think and act accordingly on these beliefs you have about yourself, the world, other people. And so once you've identified a core belief and you know, okay, is how I think, this is how I act, then you start to change.

Okay, well, how can I act differently? How can I reframe this thought? example, I was one of those people who really downplayed my accomplishments And when I really recognized that, said, okay, I'm going to try saying,thanks thanks. I really worked hard for And it felt so uncomfortable at first, but I did it. And I didn't, I wasn't paying attention to the effects of it.

super conciously I was just doing the practice, but once I finally checked in with myself, I was Dude, I am awesome. I did do those things and they were frickin hard So my core belief about myself changed.

Trina: My ADHD coach just told me two days ago that just because you think something that doesn't mean it's true. that's a, that's a really good reminder.

O'Ryan: I like the rose colored glasses analogy because glasses aren't something you're born with. There's something you choose to put on. And if you don't like the color you're seeing, you can choose to put other ones on. I know that's a silly metaphor and it sounds like, Oh yeah, I can just swap out my sunglasses.

But I think the situation you just gave Noelle is a perfect example of intentionally changing the way you see yourself and saying You know what? I did do a hard thing. That took a lot of effort. that wasn't an easy thing. I did that. And may not be at Mount Everest, but dang, that was hard.

I did it.

Trina: feel like ADHDers are notoriously not giving themselves credit for any accomplishments. So just starting there is a huge accomplishment.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Trina: Cause it's no, we're notorious for just acknowledging our successes. And we only see the failures and the hard times and that's a big problem.

O'Ryan: Making mountains out of molehills and then being upset that we didn't climb to the top

Trina: Right?

O'Ryan: mountain that we created. Yeah.

Noelle: balance sheet, right? Where we're constantly in the negative because, oh, I didn't do this, I, I dropped the ball here, I, I missed this deadline, and there's, you know, red, red, red, red, red, and then, okay, yeah, I got a green. it's still, you know, unbalanced, so we have to find ways to get rid of that mental balance sheet. I think a really quick and easy thing that someone can start doing right now is called cognitive diffusion. And one of my favorite ways to practice this is just identifying the thought. So something like, I am a terrible friend. And so you practice cognitive diffusion by separating, you're de fusing yourself

O'Ryan: Mm.

Noelle: that thought by putting an extra sentence stem in front of that sentence stem is, I'm noticing I'm having thought that I'm a bad friend.

O'Ryan: So instead of saying, I am this thing. I'm doing this thing. I feel this thing. It's, I'm noticing that I'm doing this thing.

Noelle: yeah,

O'Ryan: Ooh.

even just like, that's such a powerful reframe.

Noelle: I love it because like semantically if you say I am a bad person, I am a bad friend, I am a failure, there's no wiggle room there, it's I am. But if you say I'm having a thought that I am this, there's lots of wiggle room there. I have thoughts that, know, don't exist. The crazy, crazy thoughts like, Oh, what if an elephant ran through my backyard right

Like, you know, just random stuff that doesn't mean anything. Thoughts don't have to mean anything.

Community Tag: Hey, this is Alex, and you're listening to Brainwaves, your guide to all things ADHD, brought to you by Shimmer, the number one coaching platform for people with ADHD.

Outro:

O'Ryan: If you've ever felt like you're not doing enough, no matter how hard you try, you're definitely not alone. This shame thing can be sneaky, making us want to hide our struggles or push ourselves to unhealthy limits. But if you take away one thing from this episode I hope that it’s that the shame isn't you. It's a result of years of misunderstanding and negative reinforcement about ADHD.

Your worth isn't measured by your productivity or how well you meet others' expectations. Take some time this week to intentionally celebrate the small wins… and make sure to be kind to yourself.

You'll find links to a whole bunch of additional resources and more if you're subscribed to the newsletter or at shimmer.care/brainwaves.

If you have a question and want to be featured in a future episode, head over to shimmer.care/brainwaves where you'll be able to submit your audio questions as well as check out our past episodes.

Okay, Until next time.

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