O'Ryan: Hey there, my name is O'Ryan, and today I am joined by my two co hosts, Coach Noelle,

Noelle: Hey there.

O'Ryan: And Trina from MyLadyADHD.

Trina: Hello.

O'Ryan: So today we have a question from the community.

Kyle from NJ: Hey, this is Kyle from New Jersey, and I've really been struggling with my ADHD at work and I'm not sure what to do about it. So I've read online about maybe telling my employer about my ADHD and asking for accommodations, but I've also heard so many horror stories about other people's experience doing that, so I feel kind of stuck. any advice would be really helpful. Thanks.

O'Ryan: This is definitely something I know we've all dealt with.

I know prior to even me knowing that I had ADHD, I struggled with some of this stuff, but what's the right thing to do here? Cause I feel like I would be terrified to tell my employer that I have ADHD.

Trina: Yeah, it's such a sensitive subject. I also have heard horror stories. heard really great stories about people disclosing and it is very complicated and tricky

O'Ryan: I think first off, the big thing is, is should we actually be telling our employers that we have ADHD?

Noelle: Yeah, that's a good question. so disclosure is the official term, you know,

O'Ryan: Okay.

Noelle: that you have a disability, and that's not really a question that's easy to answer. Mainly because the laws really differ, based on the city and state and country that you live in. some places have really strong protections.

Some places have none. Like Missouri, where I live, is an at will state. So they can, employers can you for any reason at any time with no explanation. And there's just nothing you can do about it. You know, it, it's really, it's really tricky. I think if you're really considering whether you should disclose to your employer, that's something that it's really important that you talk to a local attorney who would know what your, your actual rights are in your area. attorneys will do a free consult. you know, at the very least they can, they can give you. a sense of direction, but yeah.

Trina: It's super tough. I definitely, this question is really hard to answer because it also varies from employer to employer. so it varies from state to state, but it also varies from employer to employer. I personally have had a great experience disclosing my ADHD, but I've also been super scared at other companies.

So I just kind of felt out the environment. you know, how. How comfortable am I talking to my boss? Do we have a great relationship? Or, you know, are they super judgmental? Like, all of those things are things that I've had to consider before myself. but it can be super scary. But I do think there's other things that you can do besides disclose your ADHD to get help or to get support. How can I help myself or how can I ask for help without disclosing ADHD? So I feel like there are ways around it if you're just super scared to ask or to disclose your ADHD at work.

O'Ryan: Yeah. I think that's a great way to think about this is knowing that it is a complicated thing that, The laws vary by location, but then also you have to know the people that you work with. If you feel like you can't trust that person that you're working with or that's managing you, cause it's not even just the highest boss.

It's, it's the direct manager that you have. would you be comfortable with them knowing that you have ADHD? I think maybe we can shift this conversation a little bit to talk more about how to manage ADHD in the workplace and then if we need to, to be able to ask for accommodations in ways that maybe don't always disclose that don't require you to disclose that you have ADHD. So what would be the first step here? I'm struggling at work and I need to figure something out.

Noelle: I mean, if you're struggling at work, then I think the first step is going to be getting really super clear about what it is you're struggling with and why.you know, what, what symptoms maybe of ADHD that you're encountering and how exactly is that impacting your work.if

O'Ryan: and being honest there, right? like that's, it's, it's hard. We talked the last episode about the shame stuff and to be aware that like that shame stuff is probably coming in pretty hardcore right now. And Kudos to this person asking this question, because that takes a lot of courage to even just admit that.

Noelle: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Trina: many people with ADHD are struggling with this. I would,

O'Ryan: Yeah,

Trina: if there was a percentage we could put on it, I can't say, scientifically, it feels like 90 percent in my

O'Ryan: oh yeah.

Trina: most of us are struggling at work with something, and it's it can be debilitating sometimes.

Noelle: Yeah.

Trina: So yeah, I definitely, it's really, really hard to take a deep dive look into like your struggles.

It's like very complicated, but, yeah, I think there are some questions you can ask yourself.

Noelle: Yeah.

Trina: Right, Noelle?

Noelle: Yeah. No, there's some, some questions that you can ask yourself to, to really get specific and detailed about the challenges you're facing. So first thing you could ask is Okay, what is the task that I

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: with? Is it making phone calls? Is it sending an email or spending six hours writing an email?

You know, not that I've struggled with that ever.

O'Ryan: No, never. I've never done that.

Noelle: yeah, is it getting started on a task or completing tasks? You know, what, what exactly is making, what exactly is the task you're struggling with? right now. then, okay, what about this task it challenging? if, struggling to start things,

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: okay, let's say I have a client right now who is struggling with getting started, but only on specific projects, and it took us a couple of sessions to figure out, okay, the reason that this particular project is challenging reasons that, A, it's a really big, there's so many different steps involved even if you've done it several times because of ADHD, working memory issues and prioritization and decision making, That's a lot to kind of hold in your head at the same time while you're actually doing the work.

So,yeah, getting started was sort of overwhelming.so there's like the emotional piece that kind of gets in the way. and there's, the, all the symptoms that you're sort of experiencing. And so once we identified, okay, yeah, these are specifically the roadblocks with this project, because it's not going to be the same with every project or task. then, you know, okay, the next question is, is there anything that I could add to my space or the process of doing this

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: it easier? So we created a template for that project that included step broken down and super specific, broke each of those steps into five or 10 minute chunks of work then created a template for the slideshow that they had to do that every time they can just fill in and

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: so much easier. On the flip side, is there anything you could remove from your space or the process that would make it easier?Yeah,

O'Ryan: the space is easy, right? I might have a distracting toy on my desk or phone even, right? But, from the process itself, I don't know. I'm just thinking about stuff that I'm doing, especially at work today, right? I have a bunch of stuff that I have to do, and I know that I'm adding perfectionism to that, and I'm wanting to, do things awesome and, you know, show off and be like, look how great this thing is that I did, but maybe it doesn't need to be that involved.

Noelle: I mean, the process, you can be so super minute, specific about this and make a huge difference. for example, of the things that I realize is I'm, looking at my list of tasks, if I don't have already preset a link to that exact blog or whatever it is I'm working on, then when I look at that task, I don't immediately know exactly how to find that document, going to be a barrier for me.

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: as I'm,

O'Ryan: like, task switching, right? Because you're saying, I'm going from, I'm going to do this thing to, oh, now I have to go find this thing. And now you get into a requirements loop. Yeah you might get distracted looking for that

Noelle: yeah,

O'Ryan: thing

Noelle: there's a lot of tiny, tiny details that you can to set yourself up. So that would be, for me, that was adding something to the process. It was, hey, when I'm creating my to do list, need to make sure that there is no question about and where to get started. I have a link already there. something I added to that again this week was, if I don't complete, a project or task I am working on it, I have to go back to it later, I might not remember where I left off. So I added a column in my to do list that was specifically notes for myself. the last thing I did and what I going to do next?and so that makes it easier for me to pick it back up.

when

Trina: you're working on your to do list, even writing the to do list, being careful with how you write it out. Because if you just write emails, you're leaving out, it's, that's very overwhelming, right? If you just have emails on there.

But if you are very specific on your to do list, and you say read three emails, this person, if you're like, Just, just that alone is an accommodation for yourself, I think, is just being very specific with the tasks that you give yourself is just a little side note. It's something that helps me a lot, because sometimes I can't even read what I wrote on my to do list.

It doesn't make any sense.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Trina: try to be very specific on your to do list is a, is a, I guess, an accommodation that I've done for myself.

O'Ryan: I don't know if it was a conversation that we had previously, or if I just heard it somewhere else, but it was like, be kind to your future self, be kind to future you. And so I'm thinking about if ADHD is an executive function disorder. Then I need to be aware of how and when I'm using those executive functions and when I'm in dysfunction, right?

and so if I know that I'm going to get distracted or I know that I'm gonna get overwhelmed with a List of requirements and prerequisites and stuff like that. Then I can batch those processes and say when I'm doing my to do list, I take care of all those things there. I'm making I'm using like that time to to make sure that the executive function decisions that I need to do, or, or if I need to go search for something, or I need to do research or all that stuff, that stuff gets done there.

So that in the future, when I'm in do mode, right? Action mode, that I'm not doing all these little fiddly bits that require all that different executive function. I can just focus on the one piece,

the fiddly

Noelle: bits. That's

O'Ryan: the fiddly bits.

Trina: feel like

Noelle: Yeah.

Trina: feel like we could have a whole podcast just about the dang to do list.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: for sure. Yeah.

There's a, article that I read. I think it was on Amazing Marvin. but loved it. It was called Tasty Tasks

O'Ryan: Tasty tasks.

Noelle: it's basically like, how do you write a task on your to do list in a way that you're actually going to do it?

O'Ryan: Mmm.

Noelle: like what you said, Trina, making it super specific and clear. and so it was like, always start with a verb. So instead of blog, it was write blog, then you want to be specific. So instead of write blog, it's write the introduction section of my blog.and it was really just like three steps. It's not super hard, but it's how to make a task you're actually going to do.

And they call them tasty tasks. I loved

O'Ryan: Tasty tasks. I like that.

Trina: feel like we need to make the tasks on the to do list as least intimidating as possible, just because a lot of us struggle with just getting started. So just give yourself a little baby piece of that task. And then once you're in there, you're probably golden. You know, once you get started,

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Trina: good.

But anyways, that's a little sidebar.

O'Ryan: Yeah, if that's,

Trina: a lot.

O'Ryan: if that's the thing that's hanging you up is getting started, then being kind to your future self and making sure that future self has everything you need to get started.

Noelle: Mm hmm.

O'Ryan: Okay, so getting started is obviously a hard one. I know that I'd certainly deal with that.

Noelle: Mm hmm.

O'Ryan: what are, what are some other kind of workplace challenges That we could talk about.

Noelle: so completing something if you finish it when you sit down to do it, especially with bigger long term projects.

O'Ryan: so I started a project and I can't complete it. Specific to ADHD, what's going on there?

Noelle: It could be numerous different things. It could be, maybe I was super excited at the beginning, and I was in that sort of ADHD hyper focus mode or just

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: interested in it. I know after I have a meeting with someone and I'm really passionate about the project we were talking about and I want to start it right then, but if I don't or if I get started and I can't finish it, maybe the next day I come back to it and it's Oh, I don't want to do that.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: did I commit to?

Yeah, there's something totally new that I'm excited about. I definitely don't have a list of 50 blogs that I've started and not finished because I lost my motivation. not me at all. So,you've lost the excitement, maybe the, in the process of, You know, I've started working on it.

Okay, now something pulled me away. I didn't have enough time, etc. forgot where you were at in the process of, doing it. So now jumping into it feels so overwhelming because you

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: work of rehashing and figuring out, okay, what did I already do? What needs to be done? Where was I at? It's kind of like, writing,drafts in college and school. It was always, Oh, write your first draft now, write your second drafts. And no,

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: and that's it. I don't even edit it because it's go back. I can't, but yeah.

Trina: too sometimes you hit a roadblock, like even if it's a teeny tiny roadblock, like that can derail me a thousand percent. If it's, if I'm stuck and I don't know the next step or it requires a little extra, executive functioning to get it done, then I kind of freeze completely and then I avoid it like the plague.

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: Yep. You're running into that decision paralysis that we talked about before. So yeah, you run into an issue and now instead of working on the thing, you're having to task switch in your head. You're switching executive functions to now I have to make a decision about whatever this thing is. And that is exhausting. and by the time you either make that decision or freeze and can't, well now you can't finish the project. And

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: because you had that experience, which was negative, the next time you go to work on it, oh, I don't want to work on it because I'm going to encounter that challenge. I have to get through it. So yeah, there's a lot of different reasons for, for not finishing a task.

O'Ryan: I feel like another one is time for me, especially like time blindness, time collapse, all of the time things. It's just like you start a project and then either you've gone over or you didn't realize how long it was going to take. There's so many aspects of just time.

Noelle: For most people that I start working with, one of the first things that I have them do over the course of two or three weeks is record how long it takes you to do everything that you can. you know, we might say, okay, let's take two or three tasks to record for the next three weeks.

We might say record everything. There are all kinds of apps and things you can use, to do that. But I think time blindness. one of the biggest challenges we have is, of course, estimating how long something is going to take, or remembering how long it took.so you're going to approach a task, especially something that's really big, that's potentially going to take a great deal of time. And we often will overestimate. say, Oh my gosh, this is going to take forever. when you're thinking this is going to take forever, of course, you're not going to get started on it.then you go back and you actually realize later, Oh, that only took me five minutes, like every time, right? Or you underestimate.

I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm going to write a blog about this thing. I go to, to start writing it. And in the process I realized, Oh I, I need to do some research on this. there's something I don't understand well enough to explain or something now something that I expected to take 30 minutes takes me four hours and now everything else on my task list is pushed back and it's, yeah, a nightmare.

O'Ryan: I've got a collection of framed art prints in my hallway over there that, is leaning against the wall. And I don't, I, I know it'll probably take me an hour to do. But, I don't want to have to decide The, the like arrangement of the art wall. Cause I know that that's, it's silly. okay. So I, another one that I know that I struggle with is in, especially in the time realm is stacking estimations.

So you'll, I'll, I'll start a project and I'll say, Oh yes, that'll take me this long, and that might be a bad estimation, but then I've got this project that I know is going to take this long. And then. I commit to another project and I say, Oh yeah, that'll take me this long. And then another project, and I'll be like, that'll take me this long, but I'm not accounting for the fact that I now have to do three projects and I'm going to either be tasked switching between them, or they all need to be done in a certain arrangement.

And so then I bail on all of them because it's just overwhelming.

Noelle: mm hmm.

Trina: Oh my gosh, you guys are speaking my language. I kind of wanted to back up when we were talking about like writing down or being very aware of the things that you're struggling with at work. I think it's also on the same piece of paper. You should write down the things that you are loving or that you really love at work. because I feel like those are the things that you want to try to do more of at work. So It's really important to be aware of what your strengths are and what you're really good at and what you love about your job So that you can then maybe take that to your employer and ask to do more of those and maybe the other ones will just fall off

Noelle: Or,

Trina: that's kind of my like tactic a little bit It's just like really acknowledging what you're really good at and maybe

Noelle: mm hmm.

Trina: so much of what you're not great at I think is also really important to, to consider.

Noelle: I mean, I think that even that's a really great way to accommodate yourself even if you're really clear about what it is that turns on your brain. that sparks that, that interest and passion that can get you into let's get it done mode. because the more motivation, everything you start with, the more easily you're going to get over any other hurdles that come up with decision making or prioritizing, you know, your, your brain car is so fueled up that. bumps are not as big. But, yeah, what, like one of the things that I realized, is that, when I talk to someone about a project or task and we have that back and forth about it, that really me excited because it's like, yeah, there's someone else who really cares about this and does something for my brain. when I notice, hey, there's a a task or a project that I am just struggling so hard to get through, go talk to someone about it for five minutes

O'Ryan: Hmm.

Noelle: myself excited again. So that's, there's a really easy way to kind of accommodate yourself by identifying what is a strength or, or a passion of mine, and how can I take that and now insert it into my life. the thing I'm struggling with.

Trina: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I feel like a lot of us do know what works for us. we've had years and years of trying to figure out okay, well what does work for us? But we purely forget that those things exist. I think it's really important to look at that, to acknowledge that. I know body doubling works for me. It works. If I'm on camera with five other people and they're all working silently, I will work with them. it just works for me, but I kind of sometimes forget that that exists. I think it's really important to just take a big, overhead view of your strengths. What normally works for you. You can think about your weaknesses, I guess.

we're pretty keenly aware of our weaknesses, most people with ADHD, but I think maybe really, really focusing on like the strengths and the tools that you already have and just trying to use what you know works. we forget that they exist and that is really hard, but it's true.

O'Ryan: It's interesting. I wonder if it's like the same mechanism as body doubling in general, right? Noelle, you, you mentioned this idea of going and talking to somebody else and kind of like re sparklizing, right. And getting excited and refreshing that dopamine.

I wonder if just being able to share that experience with

another person is, is even just enough sometimes to just be like, yeah, I can do this.

I got this.

Trina: Yeah, I think so.

O'Ryan: I have identified a couple of areas where I feel like I can take responsibility for my own ADHD, which I think is super important, right? We need to be able to say yes, this is something that I'm struggling with. I'm doing everything I can. There is going to be a time where that's still not going to be enough.

It's just, it's just a truth about ADHD. What do we do in those cases? Is that the point where maybe we disclose? Do we disclose? Are there other ways that we can talk about this stuff with our employer without actually disclosing?

Noelle: Yeah,at that point, I think you can consider the disclosure option depending on your situation, but if not an option for you, or you just don't want to, you can at least attempt to go to your supervisor or manager, whoever, and ways that you can describe the problem and the potential solution in a way that isn't going to disclose your ADHD. So for example, you want to sort of describe what the obstacle is and then outline a solution where you are showing that you're taking your part of the responsibility for managing it. also showing them how the solution that you're going to propose is going to help them or the company or your team.

O'Ryan: Think that's a really important part of that too, is the solution part. Because, I think every ADHD person has dealt with this situation where when you try to provide context on a challenge or a problem that you're dealing with, It often comes across as excuses, right? We've all heard that. Oh, I don't want to hear excuses.

And so being able to go to a manager or your boss or even the owner of the company, depending on where you are and being able to say Hey, this is a current situation that I'm dealing with. And I think that this is the solution to this. And this is the outcome that I expect to see from that shows them that you're not saying, Oh, I, I can't do my job because of this.

When everybody else can do it. Instead, you're saying like, this is the current situation. This is how we fix it. Can I have permission to do this?

Noelle: right, exactly. Mm

Trina: between saying, I can't work in a loud environment, and then to saying, I work so much better in a quieter

O'Ryan: Yep. Yeah.

Trina: So I think it is, it is about the approach of not asking for anything special that other people aren't getting, you're just highlighting, I can, I work better with, in the, with these

Noelle: mm hmm,

Trina: if you want the best version of me, this is, this would help me. And

O'Ryan: Mm.

Trina: to help other people. I

Noelle: mm hmm.

Trina: that, humans are amazing and they want to help other people. And so if you just say this would help me help you, I think that does go a very long way. And you don't even have to mention ADHD

Noelle: Mm hmm.

Trina: in that conversation.

Noelle: Yeah.I mean, it's, it's about really showing them that you're taking responsibility for your piece and that you've already thought ahead. It's not an excuse because it's you throwing up your hands and saying, I can't do this because of this. You tell me what to do.

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: putting the responsibility on them. You're saying, all right, know what the problem is. I know what the solution could be and I just need your okay to implement it.and this is how it's going to help, you or the company or the team, I think that is always way more convincing, especially with like corporate jobs and everything where they're

O'Ryan: Yeah.

Noelle: results oriented. that is really key to make sure you say not only that this is going to help me, but exactly how it's going to help them. hey, you know what, this project, I work so much better when I'm in a quiet environment.you'll allow me to work from the conference room, going to be able to get this done so much faster, you

O'Ryan: Yep.

Trina: That's very compelling. I mean, even me, I was like, Go, Noelle, go work from the conference room.it's compelling, you know, but again, you have to read the room, you have to know your employer, you have to, you know,

O'Ryan: You have to know yourself too, which is why it's important to do that work ahead of time, right? Where you've gone through the steps of trying to identify what's going on. Can I manage it myself? Can I self accommodate? And okay, no, I can't. I need actual help. I need some outside permission to do something.

Trina: Yeah, and I just want to share, I think, I think sometimes you're also not in the best place.

O'Ryan: For your ADHD brain and I'm, I'm not gonna tell it, I'm not telling anyone to quit their jobs. I just wanted to make that very clear, but take a look at it and it might not be the best for way that you function. Like I personally cannot work in a cubicle. an office. That doesn't work for me. I know that. I've done the research. I'm very clear that will not work for me. So if I find myself in that environment again, it's probably not going to be a great outcome. So just, you have to know yourself super well in this process and what you need to be successful.

Trina: It's really hard to do, but I think that dive is really, really important.

O'Ryan: I think just to highlight what you're saying, Trina is also cause it's easy to be like, Oh, well I can't work in a cubicle. I need to work at home. But you need to also understand that like sometimes working in the cubicle is the thing that's keeping you on task. And so that might be that positive peer pressure of your coworkers being around you and stuff like that, that is keeping you on task and that being at home might be more distracting, right?

That you might, you might have less incentive to keep on task. And so being able to be self aware enough to say, I flourish under these specific situations and being able to then cultivate that for yourself, whether it's through self accommodation or asking your, your boss. And I do think like not saying that you should quit your job, but if you do realize that you're in a position where if you went to your, your manager and, you know, asked for accommodations and you know that they're going to react poorly, or if you were in a situation where you absolutely did need to disclose where, that you had ADHD and you know that it's going to be a poor situation, your work environment is negatively influencing your mental health, then I do think that that's a position where maybe it is part of the self accommodation is to find a workplace that you can flourish in.

Noelle: yeah,

O'Ryan: Again.

Trina: because not everybody has that ability.

O'Ryan: It's true. That is totally,

Trina: it's,

Noelle: yeah.

Trina: it is a privilege to leave a job and all of that, but it's something to consider when you're applying for jobs. specifically, I know that I have applied for jobs that I know I would be pretty miserable in, but I've done it anyways. so just like, when, especially when you're applying for jobs, I think this is really, really important.

Noelle: Yeah, and

O'Ryan: yeah.

Noelle: To, you know, remember that even if you're not one of the people who has the privilege of applying for, you know, the jobs that you're really going to be great at, or the environments, or even if you're not the person who has the privilege of being able to look for another job, if this is where you're at, and this is just kind of what you got to deal with, that doesn't mean it's the end. That there are things you can do accommodate yourself in order to make sure that you're as successful as possible where you're at.

O'Ryan: I do think it is important to call out that there are organizations out there that are specifically looking for neurodivergent folks. There are organizations out there and companies out there that are specifically looking for that. so if you do find yourself in that situation, there are. Not saying it's not hard because it's always going to be hard, but there are options.

And I know Trina, you and I were talking about, there was a company specifically, I don't know if you want to touch on that

Trina: yeah, so I do know of a company called Inclusively, and this is just my, This is a rough overview.but they help you with accommodations like before the interview even starts. So they work with companies who kind of want to work with the neurodivergent folks. And they allow you to go into their portal and select your accommodations before an interview even begins. and so those companies are totally aware of it and, and happy with it before you even interview, and they have a job board. I know there's several organizations out there like that because there are companies that see the value in neurodivergent brains and they want to hire people like us. and so there are a couple of resources out there. I know that Shimmer put together, I think, a few months back, like a Accommodations Guide, and at the very bottom of that list are some of those organizations. They're listed in there. so if you're looking for a job and you want to start off on the right foot with everyone knowing that you have ADHD or not, you don't have to disclose that, then there are resources out there.

So I don't want people to feel like they're stuck and there aren't options, especially when they're job hunting.

Speaker 6: Hi, this is Kris, and you're listening to Brainwaves, your guide to all things ADHD. Brought to you by Shimmer, the number one coaching platform for people with ADHD.

O'Ryan: Workplace accommodations for ADHD, don't always require big changes or official disclosures. Sometimes just stacking a few small adjustments that allow you to work better within your current environment can make all the difference. Maybe that's adjusting how you organize tasks or identifying times of day when you're most productive. At certain types of tasks.

Maybe that's adjusting how you organize tasks or identifying times of day when you're most productive at those certain types of tasks. Once, you know, that you can start making tweaks to your work routine. And if you do need to ask for help, that's totally okay. You'll find links to a whole bunch of additional resources and more if you're subscribed to the newsletter or at

shimmer.care/brainwaves

if you have a question and want to be featured in a future episode. Then head on over to

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where you'll be able to submit your audio questions as well as check out our past episodes. Until then.

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